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From Elgg Documentation

(21:03:09) misja: hi all
(21:04:01) ewout: hi
(21:04:46) renato [~renato@bd21996f.virtua.com.br] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
(21:04:47) diego: Hi misja!
(21:04:57) diego: Hi Renato
(21:05:11) renato: hi guys
(21:05:16) misja: hi renato
(21:05:39) renato: started yet?
(21:05:44) ewout: not yet
(21:05:53) ewout: what's on the agenda?
(21:06:14) renato: 0.9.1
(21:06:26) ewout: tickets
(21:06:48) misja: yes, I'd say 0.9.1 too plus renato's work :)
(21:07:32) misja: plus if there's some time some other developments, like the teams :)
(21:08:05) diego: That would be nice... I guess we didn't work a lot on that tasks :-(
(21:08:36) renato: also the question of the templates, open by the contest
(21:08:39) misja: not that much I'm afraid
(21:09:02) misja: templtes - I 've been in touch with Kevin briefly
(21:09:15) misja: it's a good idea
(21:09:54) misja: we defenitely need a new set of templates
(21:10:17) ewout: what about plans to generate new html?
(21:10:26) ewout: what is the timeframe that will be happening?
(21:10:36) ewout: 3months? 6? 12 ?
(21:10:53) misja: templating engines ... I'd say 3
(21:10:59) ewout: I mean, a template depends on the html staying stable
(21:11:02) diego: 3 months
(21:11:19) ewout: so than, what is the point of having a contest now?
(21:11:41) ewout: let's take it to the forum and say wait
(21:11:45) misja: I'm not too wories about that, we'll have designs now and can -if necessary- adjust them later
(21:12:45) misja: most of the elements will stay more or less the same, is muy guess
(21:12:53) misja: *my*
(21:13:11) ewout: Maybe,  I am starting to think about the UI workgroup
(21:13:37) ewout: my reasoning is, there will never be consensus about the apropriate layout and information arquitecture
(21:13:47) ewout: so, we need a flexible, configurable system
(21:14:16) ewout: something analogous to the sidebar system, where you can choose the positions of the blocks
(21:14:54) diego: Something like define the "structural" components and let people think how to use it?
(21:15:19) ewout: yes, that's a good way of putting it.
(21:15:24) diego: Actually there is some of those "structural components": menu, menubar, sidebar, contentarea
(21:16:18) diego: I think we need to focus on something like an standard way to contribute to those elements in parallel with a easy way to change the look and feel of them.
(21:16:38) renato: but it's quite hard to customize things and keep through upgrades
(21:17:02) ewout: yeah, it needs to be configuration
(21:17:08) renato: and there are too many things oable only changing core code
(21:17:09) ewout: not messing in code
(21:17:16) renato: *doable*
(21:18:20) ewout: anyway, I need to write a proposal and start a discussion on the forum
(21:18:33) ewout: I will do that in the next weeks or so
(21:18:55) ewout: Kevin  already started some interesting threads, I'll build on that
(21:19:19) ewout: So, what do you all think of the bug triage?
(21:19:36) ewout: everybody needs to  *accept* their assigned bugs!
(21:19:56) ewout: or: assign them to "nobody" if you don't want them
(21:20:06) ewout: Let's start using the tracker
(21:20:37) ewout: This http://elgg.org/trac/query?status=assigned&status=reopened&group=owner&owner=%21nobody&order=priority 
(21:20:42) renato: yes, that would organize things a lot
(21:20:54) ewout: is the page that you need to look at
(21:21:13) ewout: to see the tickets that are you're responsibility
(21:21:26) renato: at least, if you are out of time to work on your tickets, you can pass them forward
(21:21:40) renato: maybe things get done faster this way
(21:22:57) ewout: We still have a lot of tickets which needs somebody to take responsibility for: http://elgg.org/trac/query?status=new&status=reopened&review_stage=accepted&review_stage=consider&review_stage=helpwanted&review_stage=review&order=priority
(21:26:19) ewout: renato, are you sure that http://elgg.org/trac/ticket/294 is a duplicate of http://elgg.org/trac/ticket/223 ?
(21:27:02) renato: quite sure...he described exactly the solution I used
(21:27:42) ewout: I did not change community_member_add in #223
(21:28:20) renato: oops
(21:28:22) ewout: #294 is about moderation
(21:28:28) renato: I marked the wrong ticket
(21:28:33) ewout: ah, I see
(21:28:38) renato: it's duplicate of other ticket
(21:29:01) renato: fixed, also, but I didn't check the correct ticket
(21:30:01) ewout: So, Diego, Misja, what do you think about the ticket process? Need improvement? Suggestions?
(21:30:20) diego: I think it is good.
(21:30:37) renato: it was ticket 245
(21:30:49) misja: I think the extr fields are good, but it's always the issue of just doing it
(21:30:58) ewout: what do you mean?
(21:31:18) misja: structure and procedures is good,
(21:31:42) diego: process
(21:31:42) misja: but one actually has to pick up the tickets
(21:31:53) ewout: that is what I am saying
(21:32:27) ewout: But I see my role as a filter: the tickets in this list http://elgg.org/trac/query?status=new&status=reopened&review_stage=accepted&review_stage=consider&review_stage=helpwanted&review_stage=review&order=priority
(21:32:30) misja: but yes, it looks good
(21:32:40) ewout: have a good chance of being real
(21:32:48) misja: yes, true
(21:33:14) ewout: I will send an email a bit later, suggesting chances in the keywords
(21:33:31) ewout: In particular, "accepted" means something specific in Trac
(21:33:33) timh [4801ce03@webchat.mibbit.com] is de ruimte binnengekomen.
(21:33:51) timh: hi all
(21:34:03) ewout: I would like to change the accepted in the review stage to "reviewed"
(21:34:05) misja: hi tim
(21:34:10) renato: hi
(21:34:16) ewout: hi tim
(21:34:21) misja: ewout, sounds good
(21:34:51) ewout: anyway, everybody please accept tickets so that we have an idea who will do what
(21:35:06) ewout: especially you, Misja :)
(21:35:17) misja: haha, yes
(21:35:17) ewout: you don't have any tickets yet!
(21:35:40) misja: I know, I'll pick some up
(21:35:44) timh: renato: re: #290, I don't belive it is a duplicate of #223
(21:35:56) renato: no, it's duplicate of #245
(21:35:59) renato: I corrected it
(21:36:05) timh: ok. 
(21:36:40) ewout: Tim, did you test this after r1519?
(21:37:31) timh: no. it was disocvred by a user on my site in v0.9. I should have checked the latest build first
(21:38:03) ewout: hahaha, svn up rules!
(21:38:34) renato: other issue that comes to my mind is plugin maintainers
(21:39:01) renato: we need some process to renew maintenance of plugins, and also need to move all to repo
(21:40:03) renato: people use plugins, discover bugs, post solutions on forum, but no one checks in to the repo
(21:41:29) renato: ah, just read diego's auth plugin, I think this needs to go to core ;)
(21:41:38) diego: Renato, Did you receive the comments to your work?
(21:41:59) renato: yes, thanks
(21:42:20) renato: I read it very quickly, later I'll answer appropriately
(21:42:44) diego: I want to put here the "Maintainer" tag issue.
(21:42:56) renato: ah, I see
(21:43:41) diego: I want to put in consideration change the semantic of the "Maintainer" tag in the plugin.info 
(21:44:13) diego: If we will assume that people will use our upload form or the
(21:44:13) diego: repository for publish their plugins Can we change this field to be
(21:44:13) diego: the 'elgg username' instead a Name plus an email address.?
(21:45:03) timh: if we do that, I think we need to add messages plugin to elgg.org - right now its hard to reach people
(21:46:18) renato: yes...why don't people put their e-mails? spam is everywhere already :p
(21:46:19) diego: The current version could be helpful..
(21:46:59) diego: in the last version I put a configuration variable that let you say if you want to allow community messages
(21:47:17) diego: that was the problem with the messages plugin on elgg.org the short time that it was online
(21:47:37) timh: I got burned by that yesterday on my server - a members sent a mass community message to 500 users by mistake ;-)
(21:48:23) ewout: Yeah, we were blocked by Yahoo because of that and the default config of postfix
(21:48:47) ewout: at least, that is what I think: too many emails to yahoo members in too short a time -> blocked
(21:52:09) diego: But when yahoo blocked you is for a short time (at least you repeat the same behavior)
(21:53:25) renato: well, we're blocked for months
(21:53:38) renato: not a single mail arrives at a yahoo box
(21:53:50) renato: that's very annoying
(21:55:13) diego: I guess
(21:55:34) diego: So what we conclude? Will we change the semantic?
(21:56:03) renato: for me it's fine, than it's easy to link it to user profile and message, if installed in elgg.org
(21:56:13) ewout: but why change it? isn't it easier to contact someone via email?
(21:56:17) renato: but I really more comfortable with e-mails
(21:57:47) renato: it's easy, once you stop working on that, to abandon elgg.org, not see the messages nor comments or posts, but e-mail always gets the message right
(21:59:54) ewout: would it be possible to track the number of downloads?
(22:00:41) ewout: Popularity may be a (albeit poor) indicator for quality
(22:01:07) renato: it's a good idea, although I'm still planning to use ratings
(22:01:18) ewout: For somebody new, how does he know that the messages plugin is good, essential and well maintained?
(22:01:29) ewout: yes, ratings would be perfect
(22:01:39) renato: count downloads is easier via apache log then through a script, no?
(22:01:42) diego: Another 'solution' could be add a new field: 'Maintainer-elggid'
(22:02:09) renato: or add a "field" to the current field
(22:02:17) diego: ??
(22:02:27) renato: Real Name <e-mail> [elggusername]
(22:02:39) diego: yeap take the apache_log could be easier
(22:02:47) diego: mmm
(22:02:59) diego: I like that approach
(22:03:10) renato: seems more natural to me
(22:03:42) renato: just a simple parsing away
(22:04:04) renato: ewout? misja?
(22:04:22) ewout: looks good to me!
(22:04:39) misja: apayes, sure, looks good to me too
(22:05:29) renato: I would like some feedback on cron.php issue
(22:06:39) timh: you mean it just not getting called?
(22:06:53) diego: The current code need to be called form a cron process
(22:07:04) timh: Should we just document how to setup a cron task?
(22:07:10) renato: yes, but what period?
(22:07:21) diego: hourly?
(22:07:23) timh: I use every 5 min
(22:07:23) renato: yes, this is necessary...at least point it out
(22:07:33) diego: half hour?
(22:07:52) renato: there's nothing in the docs, any docs
(22:08:06) renato: and I'm not sure for what this is used
(22:08:15) timh: each plugin sets its own period, so calling more frequently doesn't put much of a hit on the server
(22:08:22) renato: besides the plugin I wrote and cachecleaner
(22:08:39) timh: rss imports, mailblogger, filecrawler, other stoo
(22:09:02) renato: hum...ok, so I'll open a ticket to include this in 0.9.1 docs
(22:09:19) renato: or better, use current ticket, duh
(22:09:42) timh: are their other docs changes anyone is aware are necessary?
(22:10:15) renato: I think we need to put more relevance on upgrade and migrate docs
(22:10:49) renato: and include a link to "troubleshoot install" wiki page
(22:11:00) timh: ok
(22:11:07) ewout: Docs will need to be written anyway about this issue
(22:11:08) ewout: http://elgg.org/trac/ticket/295
(22:11:30) ewout: please accept it if you feel inspired :)
(22:11:59) ewout: how about including "fake" cron functionality in core?
(22:12:24) ewout: Renato pointed to some scripts, is that something we want to have in core?
(22:12:50) ewout: Would be nice for Window users maybe
(22:13:01) timh: what is the best method for this though?
(22:13:08) ewout: and for shared host users who don't have access to crontab easily
(22:13:49) renato: there are other ways
(22:14:11) renato: I think there are free web monitoring services, that you can use to access cron.php regularly
(22:15:17) timh: I'm a shared host user, and setting up a task isn't bad (via CPanel or PLESK)
(22:17:45) ewout: So would you not put cron functionality in core?
(22:18:00) diego: What approaches are available?
(22:18:05) ewout: just solve it with documentation? 
(22:19:21) renato: the point is just: with a fake cron it doesn't need the user to set up anything
(22:19:47) renato: but there are always ways for the user to set it up
(22:20:13) renato: with user controlling the host, inumerable ways...
(22:20:33) renato: shared hosts usually offer this kind of thing, as tim said
(22:20:59) renato: and in the last case, you can use web monitoring services, or a contab in your own pc
(22:21:37) diego: I agree with the documentation approach
(22:22:38) diego: A hard coded way would need something like a AJAX interface... and it would need more specific programming in the 'cron' plugin task for filter the task to the logged user
(22:23:21) diego: It would be nice for a fuuuuuuuuuuuuuture version. For now a well documented feature would be enough
(22:24:27) timh: i'll add to the documentation wiki, since its applicable now as well
(22:24:33) ewout: All right, anything else?
(22:24:57) ewout: how about the 0.9.1 release next week?
(22:25:22) ewout: http://elgg.org/trac/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&group=milestone&order=milestone
(22:25:45) ewout: I count 12 bugs open for 0.9.1
(22:26:46) ewout: 3 to be assigned, 9 to be accepted
(22:27:30) ewout: I have one left, which I will close this weekend. How about you guys?
(22:28:21) renato: 282 and 258 only needs checkin, 260 is unverified
(22:28:21) diego: I will close mine this weekend plus some improvements to the newsclient plugin.
(22:28:53) renato: anyone reproduced 266?
(22:29:02) diego: We are working on let users say if they want to publish old stuff when they select the option 'publish to blog'
(22:29:11) ewout: hmm, just noticed that #295 that I just opened is a duplicate of #288. which Renato opened, sorry about that :(
(22:29:33) renato: #261 for me shoul go to 0.9.2
(22:29:38) ewout: diego: cool
(22:30:10) ewout: renato, I agree
(22:31:28) renato: 277 is over my head, does it need fix? misja?
(22:31:59) renato: 217 only checkin also
(22:32:28) misja: 277 - actually I don't think it's broken but can't really test it
(22:33:25) ewout: I put the cron documentation for 0.9.2
(22:33:59) renato: 291 I don~t know
(22:34:53) renato: 257 needs test - there's a patch but I don't know if it works
(22:35:15) renato: the only unassigned needing tackling is 251
(22:35:23) ewout: #291 : this puts remove friend links in next to your friend list
(22:35:41) misja: 291, I think it is valid, the unfriend link should be there
(22:35:43) ewout: I will implement that, it seems like reasonable aproach
(22:36:17) ewout: implement, in this case = apply the patch :)
(22:36:32) renato: ok, so this settles everything for 0.9.1?
(22:36:50) renato: mostly testing patches
(22:37:05) misja: yes, I think it should be good
(22:37:48) diego: me too
(22:38:43) renato: well, anything else?
(22:38:57) ewout: nope, let's get to work!
(22:39:04) renato: needs resume?
(22:39:22) ewout: except for Misja, we'll let him sleep
(22:39:26) renato: (resume in english has other mean, I think...oops)
(22:39:40) ewout: summary
(22:39:43) misja: ha, sorry guys,
(22:39:44) renato: yes
(22:39:52) misja: was having calls inbetween
(22:40:12) timh is weggegaan (quit: Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client).
(22:40:34) misja: right, to work it is
(22:40:56) misja: btw anyone heard from rolando?
(22:41:04) ewout: nope
(22:41:21) renato: something about the teams?
(22:41:26) misja: hmm, I'll see what he's up to
(22:41:38) misja: teams, sure
(22:42:11) renato: I think we can postpone that to next week again? :p
(22:42:34) diego: I think the same too
(22:42:49) renato: we have work already, till 0.9.1
(22:42:58) diego: However the first step could be start to talk internally about the tasks suggested for each team
(22:43:01) misja: ok
(22:43:12) diego: Someone have at hand what were the teams?
(22:43:40) misja: I made some notes, I'll create a page on the wiki
(22:44:25) renato: that's in the log of 20/12
(22:45:14) renato: ewout - UI
(22:45:14) renato: diego - plugins
(22:45:14) renato: misja - templates
(22:45:14) renato: rho - core
(22:45:22) misja: exactly
(22:48:56) renato: misja, let me know when you can take a look at that plugin. I'll see diego's suggestions, and try to make ratings work
(22:49:19) misja: was planning on taking a closer look tomorrow
(22:49:50) misja: will have the server side packaging of mods ready by then too, I think
(22:50:40) renato: ok, when I have another version I send it 
(22:51:15) misja: great
(22:52:35) diego: I will take a deep look to your code to figure out how to reuse some of your code for the plugin manager
(22:53:36) ewout: I will be trying to fix bugs
(22:54:41) diego: I will write to all of you about some ideas that I have about how to improve the plugin management.
(22:57:48) misja: guys, will need to leave
(22:58:07) misja: let's squash some tickets :)
(22:58:56) misja: ewout, I'll commit the changes to the ticket labels
(22:59:05) misja: (your email)
(22:59:12) misja: bye all